EPA is no longer our friend. They are now one of "Them"

Hoss 350

My GSP, Dutch
Joined
Sep 8, 2005
Messages
883
Reaction score
1
Location
Spokane, WA
To continue my rant from the CAT post, how many of you are aware that the 2007 emissions regulations, which are mostly designed to reduce PM, and will cost HUGE amounts of money on the sticker price of a diesel truck, were specifically designed off of a fatally flawed study that proved absolutely nothing to every epidemiologist that ever looked at it?

To summarize, the study looked at populations all over the country that were near (within 5 miles) of a PM sampling site. The study found a tendency for people in the higher PM areas to visit the hospital more often (something like 17%), and to (on average) die 9 months earlier than people in low PM areas. At face value, this all looks well and good. Until you dig into the study a little more. I will present a list of some of the more dubious claims/representations/outright lies that they presented.

1.) The statistics for increased hospital visits did not take into account the type of injury/illness that was the reason for the visit. Injuries resulting from drug overdoses, lacerations, car accidents, falls, bacterial infection, viral infection, cancer, and every other reason to go to the hospital (including, one must assume, pregnancy and childbirth) were included in the study. The study merely found an increase in hospital visits in high PM areas. So, one must conclude that PM caused the woman to get pregnant, the prostate cancer, the car accident, etc for this to actually mean something in the study. Since it is ludicrous to think that, it is also ludicrous to assume that the increased hospital visits mean anything in relation to PM.
2.) Even if the type of injury/illness were narrowed down to those that logically could occur as a result of PM (ie, pneumonia & lung infection, lung cancer, etc), and there was still an indication of increased hospital visits, it still means nothing. This is because NO ONE, and I mean NO ONE has ever conducted a study that successfully shows that PM causes harm at the levels that we see, even in highly polluted areas. In fact, no one has proven PM to cause harm until the environment is so choked with PM that it is obviously a problem (ie black lung in coal miners). So, it is even dubious to assume that increased respiratory strain could be attributed to the PM. Take note that we, as a species, have been sucking down PM since the dawn of time in the form of wind blown dust, pollen, and smoke.
3.) There was no adjustment made for the fact that typically, high PM areas are also the more urban and depressed areas in our country. This means that violent crime, drug and alcohol use, automobile accidents (from urban traffic), quality of life (stress levels), and generally how well people take care of themselves, among other things, could easily be causing the slight increase in hospital stays and the premature death rates.
4.) There is no adjustment for the age of the populations, taken as an average. The average age of the populations differed by as much as a decade. It is then logical that the number of hospital stays would be quite different over populations that divergent in age.
5.) Populations that did not “tow the party line” were excluded. Several southerly populations, including New Orleans, were listed as high PM areas but did not show any increase in hospital visits or death rate. Therefore, these areas were excluded as “abhorrations” from the study. If these populations are added back in, any indications made by the study in its current form are negated. It then becomes obvious why they were excluded. Without a problem to solve, the EPA becomes obsolete, so they are now bending data to create non-existent problems to justify their existence.
6.) The percentages and trends displayed are so low as to be ignored in most epidemiological studies. Most epidemiologists will ignore trends showing increases less than 150%. This one shows a trend of 17%. It is almost laughable.
7.) The EPA assigned an arbitrary number of $5 million dollars to every life cut short by PM exposure, thereby coming up with an astronomical number to “prove” to the public that by spending this huge amount of money to clean up PM, they were actually saving money. It is somewhat beyond me how they made this claim, since the study shows a 9 month decrease in life span (again, a laughably small number that should be dismissed as a statistical anomaly, especially after the “abhorrations” were excluded) and I am at a loss as to how 9 months of someone’s life is worth 5 million dollars to the US GDP. Especially considering that 9 months at the end of someone’s life are typically non-productive months, where they are not contributing anything to GDP anyway.

I guess I should stop now. But I figured you guys might want to know some of this.

I am not pro-pollution. I am for making sure we do not waste countless millions cleaning up a non-issue when the money could be spent elsewhere, actually doing some good.

/rant
 

draftlover

Crybaby
Joined
Feb 14, 2006
Messages
136
Reaction score
0
Location
Wyoming, U.S.A.
What do you mean "no longer our friend"? I never liked them in the first place. Take off all that smog busting crap and the fuel mileage improvement nullifies the need for the smog-cutters.:sweet
 

WD40

Full Access Member
Joined
Aug 23, 2005
Messages
3,455
Reaction score
17
Location
Benton Arkansas
5.) Populations that did not “tow the party line” were excluded. Several southerly populations, including New Orleans, were listed as high PM areas but did not show any increase in hospital visits or death rate. Therefore, these areas were excluded as “abhorrations” from the study. If these populations are added back in, any indications made by the study in its current form are negated. It then becomes obvious why they were excluded. Without a problem to solve, the EPA becomes obsolete, so they are now bending data to create non-existent problems to justify their existence.

This is enough reason to hate the EPA:hail :hail . Everyone knows New Orleans,-mad sucks big time but it was not included.:confused: :confused:
 

Hoss 350

My GSP, Dutch
Joined
Sep 8, 2005
Messages
883
Reaction score
1
Location
Spokane, WA
draftlover said:
What do you mean "no longer our friend"? I never liked them in the first place. Take off all that smog busting crap and the fuel mileage improvement nullifies the need for the smog-cutters.:sweet
Well, I guess you could say that, but I wouldn't. I have stood next to one too many non-smog controlled vehicles idling in the garage for me to want to have our streets and highways clogged the way they are today with those stinky, noxious bastards. However, there is a right way to do stuff, and a wrong way. The EPA tends to pick the wrong way, IMHO, more often than not.

In my other post on the subject, I discussed the troublesome tradeoff between efficiency and NOx pollution. Check it out (in the performance upgrades section under the heading "are gas and diesel cats the same") Therein lies the problem.

A vehicle getting good fuel mileage can still be highly polluting. For some types of pollution, efficiency is actually the enemy.

My main gripe is that IMHO we have gotten to the point of diminishing returns, BIG TIME, and they know it, so they are manufacturing problems, fabricating study results, and lying to us in order to dupe us into believing that the problem is worth our money and attention, simply to justify theie existence and create job security. There are much bigger fish to fry right now than PM, and the money we are spending on PM could be better spent on many, many different things which actually give us some form of return on the money we spend.
 

powerboatr

living well in Texas
Joined
Jul 28, 2005
Messages
6,045
Reaction score
16
Location
Northeast Texas
So hoss
when i win the 08 election
I have a cabinet post you may be interested in..

very well said
because of you. today i ahve been using my environmental brain searching for bio emissions and related good stuff

and a safe way to get rid of hex chrome
 

draftlover

Crybaby
Joined
Feb 14, 2006
Messages
136
Reaction score
0
Location
Wyoming, U.S.A.
Hoss 350 said:
Well, I guess you could say that, but I wouldn't. I have stood next to one too many non-smog controlled vehicles idling in the garage for me to want to have our streets and highways clogged the way they are today with those stinky, noxious bastards....

I have smelled some bad ones but...

Hoss 350 said:
In my other post on the subject, I discussed the troublesome tradeoff between efficiency and NOx pollution. Check it out (in the performance upgrades section under the heading "are gas and diesel cats the same") Therein lies the problem.

O.K.I agree, but...

Hoss 350 said:
A vehicle getting good fuel mileage can still be highly polluting. For some types of pollution, efficiency is actually the enemy.

I don't think so. We have the technology to produce gas burners (don't know about diesels) that can get upwards of 60 to 80 MPG with out the assistance of elec. motors or hydrogen cells. I know of people who are getting 50 MPG out of Volkswagen turbo-diesel Bugs. I know these aren't putting out 300 plus horses, but if you can do it at 150 hp why not 300 hp. I also realize the vehicle size and aerodynamics also play a part along with payload. But, my argument is that the technology is there... lets use it. For example: We all know that 4" exhaust with a 4" turbo downpipe allow a 6.0L Powerstroke to perform better, get better fuel mileage and produce more usable power while retaining the stock cat converter. So, why do I have to buy it aftermarket and put it on. Ford and the EPA know this ,too. This is a "non-Rocket Science" induced aid to part of the fuel efficiency/power/pollutiion problem. I mean, when I bought my truck in '05 the estimated MPG wasn't required to be posted on the sticker. Now we're going to pay $10,000 more for a truck with all this emission control crap, new low-sulfur fuel systems and we'll have to pay more for low-sulfur fuel. But, a year ago no one gave a **** what the estimated MPG's were on my truck? Not even the EPA? WHF??? Whats going on? I think this is stupid, stupid, stupid!!! All they need to do is add a $400 exhaust and the tradeoff is probably equal!!

Hoss 350 said:
There are much bigger fish to fry right now than PM, and the money we are spending on PM could be better spent on many, many different things which actually give us some form of return on the money we spend.

Oh and yeah, like, using the money to get my Powerstroke up to about 35-40MPG instead of 10.5 to 13MPG empty. You can't tell me that trippling the fuel economy on a rig isn't fighting pollution even without a cat converter!...
I'm done now.:rolleyes:
 
Last edited:

Hoss 350

My GSP, Dutch
Joined
Sep 8, 2005
Messages
883
Reaction score
1
Location
Spokane, WA
draftlover said:
I have smelled some bad ones but...



O.K.I agree, but...



I don't think so. We have the technology to produce gas burners (don't know about diesels) that can get upwards of 60 to 80 MPG with out the assistance of elec. motors or hydrogen cells. I know of people who are getting 50 MPG out of Volkswagen turbo-diesel Bugs.
I am one of them, see my sig. My wife's TDI Golf gets 50-52 MPG. THat does not negate the fact that pollution-wise, the TDI is a pretty dirty car. Most ratings rate it a 1 or 2 out of 10 on pollution scales, while comparable cars like Honda Accords, etc, are 8 and 9.
I know these aren't putting out 300 plus horses, but if you can do it at 150 hp why not 300 hp. I also realize the vehicle size and aerodynamics also play a part along with payload. But, my argument is that the technology is there... lets use it.
Heck yes, I'm all for it. But, it has to be done without stripping emissions off the vehicle, like you had said in previous posts.
For example: We all know that 4" exhaust with a 4" turbo downpipe allow a 6.0L Powerstroke to perform better, get better fuel mileage and produce more usable power while retaining the stock cat converter. So, why do I have to buy it aftermarket and put it on. Ford and the EPA know this ,too. This is a "non-Rocket Science" induced aid to part of the fuel efficiency/power/pollutiion problem.
This was part of my rant from the earlier post I directed you to. I agree totally and completely with what you just said. The main problem is that the EPA could give a fig about efficiency. They care about pollution. Period.

I mean, when I bought my truck in '05 the estimated MPG wasn't required to be posted on the sticker. Now we're going to pay $10,000 more for a truck with all this emission control crap, new low-sulfur fuel systems and we'll have to pay more for low-sulfur fuel. But, a year ago no one gave a **** what the estimated MPG's were on my truck? Not even the EPA? WHF??? Whats going on? I think this is stupid, stupid, stupid!!! All they need to do is add a $400 exhaust and the tradeoff is probably equal!!
Again, the EPA does not concern itself with fuel economy, merely pollution. This has been one of my main problems with them from day one. However, you cannot strip the emissions stuff off of the rig in pursuit of fuel economy, like you had indicated in your first post. My argument has always been to get EFFICIENCY, which takes care of HC/CO/PM pollutions, then worry about NOx using some other method like urea injection. THe EPA, instead, has taken care of NOx by reducing efficiency (lowering compression ratios, adding EGR valves) and then take care of HC/CO/PM with aftertreatments like PM filters (HUGE efficiency loss) and catalysts (not so bad). They went the wrong route, IMHO. The reasoning would be that people would not fill the urea tank. My guess is that you could solve that REALLY quick by putting a rig with an empty urea tank into "limp mode" until the tank was filled again. Easy-peasy japanesey. However, simple logic like this eludes the EPA in so many cases.



Oh and yeah, like, using the money to get my Powerstroke up to about 35-40MPG instead of 10.5 to 13MPG empty. You can't tell me that trippling the fuel economy on a rig isn't fighting pollution even without a cat converter!...
I'm done now.:rolleyes:
I agree!!! Except for you have to be careful not to commit the fallacy of assuming that good fuel economy is synoymous with low pollution emissions. It is not. In fact, as mentioned, efficiency is often the enemy in pollution control.

That said, I agree that our main focus at this point should be to go for efficiency. Ou rigs already burn so clean these days, that it just seems silly to keep trying to clean them up. The law of diminishing returns states that we are going to be spending more money to get far less result.

Not to mention the pollution created in drilling, refining, hauling, distrbuting, etc all that extra fuel that could be reduced if every rig was more efficient.
 

BJS

Full Access Member
Joined
Apr 1, 2005
Messages
1,530
Reaction score
0
Location
Jacksonville, FL
Hoss 350 said:
Again, the EPA does not concern itself with fuel economy, merely pollution. This has been one of my main problems with them from day one. However, you cannot strip the emissions stuff off of the rig in pursuit of fuel economy, like you had indicated in your first post. My argument has always been to get EFFICIENCY, which takes care of HC/CO/PM pollutions, then worry about NOx using some other method like urea injection. THe EPA, instead, has taken care of NOx by reducing efficiency (lowering compression ratios, adding EGR valves) and then take care of HC/CO/PM with aftertreatments like PM filters (HUGE efficiency loss) and catalysts (not so bad). They went the wrong route, IMHO. The reasoning would be that people would not fill the urea tank. My guess is that you could solve that REALLY quick by putting a rig with an empty urea tank into "limp mode" until the tank was filled again. Easy-peasy japanesey. However, simple logic like this eludes the EPA in so many cases.


As much as I hate to do it I understand completely the logic behind why the EPA has the regulations that are in place today.

One of the standard rules requires that all emissions related systems be maint free for at least 100k and mandates warranties from the mfg for that length of time or 10years. Why?? you ask? Simple. The average person does not maintain their vehicle. For those of you old enough to remember points. The greatest complaint was that they alwasy failed and left you stranded, not if you did routine maint and replaced them like you're supposed to do.

That's why the same technologies being used to clean up diesels in europe are not valid here because they require user intervention. Particulate filters are one example.

I agree we are nearing a point of diminishing returns when it comes to automotive emissions. However the EPA is a gov't agency and they pick on the easiest target to accomplish the task. When you consider the emissions any modern automobile creates in it's lifetime it will not equal the amount of polloution generated in the production of that vehicle, you need to redirect your efforts of polloution reduction. This is logical but since the gov't is operated by politicians, politics and lobbist play a role and those producting the vehicles are fighting against cleaning up their processes because it is cheaper to change the product than the production.
 

Hoss 350

My GSP, Dutch
Joined
Sep 8, 2005
Messages
883
Reaction score
1
Location
Spokane, WA
BJS said:
As much as I hate to do it I understand completely the logic behind why the EPA has the regulations that are in place today.

One of the standard rules requires that all emissions related systems be maint free for at least 100k and mandates warranties from the mfg for that length of time or 10years. Why?? you ask? Simple. The average person does not maintain their vehicle. For those of you old enough to remember points. The greatest complaint was that they alwasy failed and left you stranded, not if you did routine maint and replaced them like you're supposed to do.

That's why the same technologies being used to clean up diesels in europe are not valid here because they require user intervention. Particulate filters are one example.

I agree we are nearing a point of diminishing returns when it comes to automotive emissions. However the EPA is a gov't agency and they pick on the easiest target to accomplish the task. When you consider the emissions any modern automobile creates in it's lifetime it will not equal the amount of polloution generated in the production of that vehicle, you need to redirect your efforts of polloution reduction. This is logical but since the gov't is operated by politicians, politics and lobbist play a role and those producting the vehicles are fighting against cleaning up their processes because it is cheaper to change the product than the production.
Buy the man a cigar... I think I owe you a beer, my friend.

Automobile emissions are the fastest, most politically visible way to get noticed. THey say "look, I'm doing something!" and we all see it because it effects us directly. The same would not be true when you consider the emissions from the production process, or the oil refinery, or the coal fired power plant. They are posturing. They are choosing te most politically visible part of the problem to clean up because they get the most atta-boys there, not the most cleanable pollution.

As far as keeping the systems maintenance free, that I why I mentioned putting the rig into limp mode when the urea tank goes dry. That would solve the problem of people not filling the tank with a quickness. I know i would spring for some ammonia real quick as soon as four of the eight cylinders in my truck shut off. THe "maintenance free for 100K" is a good enough idea, but it is flawed fatally when you consider that there are other options that could increase efficiency if you just forget that particular rule. That particular rule is why we are getting 14 MPG when we should be getting 27.
 

draftlover

Crybaby
Joined
Feb 14, 2006
Messages
136
Reaction score
0
Location
Wyoming, U.S.A.
Hoss 350 said:
I agree!!! Except for you have to be careful not to commit the fallacy of assuming that good fuel economy is synonymous with low pollution emissions. It is not. In fact, as mentioned, efficiency is often the enemy in pollution control.


I like the reply. Very nicely done. I see your point, but I do have a question on the above statement. I understand that "[There is a]fallacy of assuming that good fuel economy is synonymous with low pollution emissions." But, the EPA has to look at it like this...or do they. Here is my simplified example: Vehicle A has tons of emission control stuff on it. Vehicle B has none. Vehicle A gets 10 MPG while putting out 90% CO2 and Water and 10% Pollution related materials per gallon. Vehicle B Gets 50 MPG and puts out 50% CO2 and Water and 50% pollution related materials per gallon. Which one pollutes less? I say car B. It's the same, but I can go 150 miles on 3 gallons where car A has to burn 15 Gallons. Less fuel burned, better for the environment all around. And keep in mind this only stays true as long as the "cat" is good and kept in working order. As soon as it fails this goes all to hell. I'm sure my point is null and void, as the EPA is a government bureaucracy like everything else. They don't look at the big picture, only the part of the picture they're assigned to. In other words, all the environmental impacts of drilling for oil, transportation of fuel, processing of fuel, traffic congestion issues, economic impacts to the private citizen for purchasing fuel, economic impacts of companies selling fuel (I'm sure Exxon loves the EPA!!), cost of R&D to vehicle and oil companies, costs passed on to the consumer, and all the other associated environmental, economic and social impacts are dealt with by other bureaucratic agencies. So, It really doesn't matter about the other stuff. I love the U.S, :rolleyes: :D Government!!
 

Members online

No members online now.

Forum statistics

Threads
30,548
Messages
266,144
Members
14,676
Latest member
FlorWhitfe
Top